I am in Pingelly in the Western Australian Wheatbelt
to meet a man whose single act of defiance
forced Australian sport to take a good, long, hard look at itself.
As an AFL footballer,
his speed and sublime skills thrilled crowds all around Australia.
It's the legendary Nicky Winmar.
Oh, Nicky Winmar! Hi, Julia.
Look at you. How are you?
I'm very good. And you?
You've brought us to Pingelly. Yeah.
Do you often come back to Pingelly?
Oh, once every now and then.
I do come back and see some of the family that are still here.
Now, we're meeting at this church. Yeah.
Why are we meeting here?
Dad's boss used to come out here,
so we used to come out here and just say hello and...
Then, one day, we came out and got some wood
and he decided to tell me to get out of the car and run home.
So... Run home?
Was that a training technique, I'm wondering?
Is he getting you to train ahead of time?
Yeah, he had other ideas 'cause, I mean,
I started shearing sheep with him when I was 14,
but he just wanted me to do something different
and he just made me do some long-distance running.
And did he maybe lie to you about the distance?
I reckon it was 8km. It's not 5km.
It's not 5km. No, that's ridiculous.
So, your dad told you it was 5km, and it was 8km?
And you used to run it all the time? Yeah.
As in, like, to train up? Just to train.
Oh, would you look at what we've got here?
Yeah, this is a 1974 HQ.
This is magnificent.
Yeah. This is a beast.
This is nice. Do you mind driving today?
No. Love to. Excellent.
I'm just going to slide across, everyone, like in the old days.
(LAUGHS)
Oh, it's so good!
Oh, I love not having that thing in the middle.
♪ Jump in my car
♪ I wanna take you home
♪ Jump in my car
♪ It's too far to walk on your own. ♪
COMMENTATOR: In goes Winmar.
Winmar - his third goal in the last quarter!
Nicky Winmar was an undisputed Australian football superstar.
He won scores of awards and accolades in a distinguished career,
capped by being named in both the St Kilda
and Indigenous Teams of the Century.
He was the first Indigenous footballer
to play 200 AFL games.
In 1993, he changed the game when he stood tall and dignified,
defying the racist cowards in the crowd,
proclaiming that he was black and proud.
So, we're off to Pingelly.
I'm just imagining you running along here.
How old were you when you were doing this running?
Oh, I was about 14. 13, 14. I was...
And what goes through your head when you run,
when you're little like that?
I was angry. Oh, you were angry?
(BOTH LAUGH)
'Cause the car was, like, in front of me and going slow.
Oh, so, you can actually see them in the car?
Yeah, and then he would stop for a while
and I'd get closer to the car, then he'd drive off.
No way! Yeah.
It was good, in a way, that I did that extra training
'cause it made me sort of realise, later on in life,
if you're going to benefit
and get stronger in your footy career
or any sporting career, you've got to do the extra yards.
This is Pingelly.
And how many people would live here?
Just about 800, or just under 1,000.
We've got a lot of bush tucker in this town too.
Is there really? Yeah.
What kind of bush tucker could I get here?
Other people's fruit trees. Other people's fruit trees!
There's the old station.
Closed down now.
Oh, look at that pub. (LAUGHS)
I mean, really, that is such a pub.
Yeah. Big veranda.
I'll take you to the place where I grew up as a kid,
on the reserve.
Just out of town.
And when you say reserve, what do you mean by that?
Um, Indigenous people used to live in that area.
Aboriginal families. Mm.
Before you even got into town. Mm.
The houses would be out in the bush.
So, how far is it from town? Like, could you walk it?
Yeah, we could walk down there,
but you had to be out of town before dark.
Otherwise, you'd get...
They'd say, "You'll get taken away or..."
Really? "pinched."
It's just a beautiful little spot
to come back to
'cause a lot of memories are here.
Really? Can you feel those memories? Yeah.
Shall we stop and have a little look? Yeah, we could.
So, were all the houses here, Nicky? Yeah, they used to be.
Used to be like, um, a little school.
Town hall there as well.
Would that have been your first school?
Yeah, kindergarten. Kindy?
Yeah. And who would...?
Was there a teacher there? Yeah, my aunty.
Your aunty was teaching kids. Yeah. She was a great lady too.
And so how many houses would there be here?
There was heaps.
There was a lot of people who used to live up here.
And what were they made out of?
Oh, we used to live in the tin shacks first,
corrugated sheeting.
So, we used to live with, like, the floors as it is.
Mm.
Then they got two-bedroom sort of houses here...
Mm. ..with the kitchen in the middle
and toilets were just ablution blocks here
with, um, a shower on each side.
Mm.
So, nobody would go into the showers until the fire was lit...
(LAUGHS) ..'cause there was no hot water...
No hot water. ..till the fire was lit.
Everybody would just run out with their towels. (LAUGHS)
And who was living here?
You were here with your mum and dad? Yeah, Mum and Dad.
The other reserve, Dad was born in a tent under a tree.
Back then, it was like, you know, downtown used to be...
One side of the, sometimes, the drinking venues
where the Aboriginals was one side, and the whites, the other side.
So, there was segregation in town? Yeah.
And how old were you when you left here?
Seven, eight years old. Yeah, yeah.
Did you feel welcome in town?
Sometimes you did. Sometimes you didn't.
Yeah, it was pretty hard times.
And was there... was there overt kind of racism?
Yeah, there was. Mm.
There was a lot of racism still. Mm. In the town?
Yeah, there was in the town. Mm.
A lot of the land that the Aboriginal people grew up on,
lived on before I was born, were... were fenced off
and sold to non-Indigenous people, like white people,
which was sad because, you know, it became Crown land.
But why, you know? It should belong to us.
And what's this rock?
They tried to fence this land off as well
because they wanted to subdivide it and sell it to the white people,
but Dad took a stand against it.
In what way? How do you mean?
Just to not to let people take over what belongs to us,
to say that, "This is our land and don't touch this rock."
It was a powerful saying to everyone.
It was hard, though,
'cause they did fight for a long time for it.
Don't know what they'd done to it all.
Yeah. Just ridiculous.
I wish they had have left it as it was 'cause...
Do you?
..a lot of people would have still come back...
Yeah. ..for meet-up time and funerals,
birthdays, parties, whatever.
So, this is actually land that means something to people?
Yeah.
And that's why they might return here for a funeral
or return here to talk and... and think about old times?
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. It's significant in that way.
How does it make you feel being here when you see this place now?
Yeah, it makes me sad. It makes me happy.
At the same time? Yeah.
Um, a lot of memories. Mm.
Just we used to go hunting a bit further out the back there
and catch a few kangaroos.
Mm-hm?
Get a goanna every now and then. Mm.
Um, tastes like chicken. Mm.
(BOTH LAUGH)
That's what they all say.
Goannas are good! I love how people...
When people are frightened of a new food,
they go, "It just tastes like chicken."
You've got to break the legs before you cook them.
Otherwise, they'll stand back up. Do you? Oh, my God!
Yeah, my aunty did that one day. Did she?
Forgot to break its legs, cooked it in the oven,
and the goanna was standing looking at her.
She ran out the door screaming!
(BOTH LAUGH)
And so, when you left here when you were eight,
was it strange leaving somewhere that was, like, so open
and having to go into town and live...?
We were excited about going to town.
Were you? Yeah.
Somewhere, like, closer to the shops and everything.
And playing sport - closer to the footy and that.
Shall we go and check it out?
Check out the school? Check out the school.
Yeah, check out the school. Love to.
Well, this is beautiful. The breeze comes up.
And you can hear the sound of the trees. It's beautiful.
You can hear voices too.
Nah. (BOTH LAUGH)
This is the old school.
Pingelly Primary. Yeah.
It's good to see the roses are still here.
We'd usually take them home, but... Did you?
(LAUGHS)
On your first day of school, what was your feeling?
What was the emotion you had? Oh, I was excited.
Were you? 'Cause everybody else was here.
All your mates were here.
A lot of, you know...
More Indigenous people here.
Used to love coming in to the library.
Best thing about a library, of course,
is being able to have a nap.
It was quiet, you know? I know.
Let's have a sit-down. Yeah.
We just came from the reserve
where we had a look at where you used to live.
Tell me about your parents. What were your parents like?
Mum was just Mum.
She was at home all the time. She looked after us.
Dad - Dad was the carrier.
He, um, did all the hard stuff. Mm.
Um, the shearing and all the farming.
Mm. I happen to have a photo right here.
Yeah. I know.
That's Dad when he was shearing sheep.
Look at this! It's back-breaking work.
Yeah, he's responsible for me running those long kilometres and...
Yeah.
..going to Melbourne... While he was doing this.
..while he was doing that!
While he was doing that! Sheep-shearing.
Oh! What kind of man was he?
He was a good bloke. He was straight-out.
Um, always hard and strong. Tough in his ways.
Your parents actually had their first child, Robin...
Yeah. Um, died early.
She's deceased. She died at a young age, yeah.
Yeah. And so you were next. Yeah.
And you've got how many other brothers and sisters?
There's Frank.
Heather - sister, and Bevan is deceased.
Yeah. Your parents died quite young, didn't they?
Yeah, Dad at the age of 50.
Um, it was the night before the '97 Grand Final.
We played Adelaide Crows.
Yeah, and you were in St Kilda at that point.
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
And Dad was, um...
He passed away two days after my birthday and...
Or a day after my birthday and two days before the Grand Final.
I mean, I can't imagine what that must have been like.
That must have been incredible. Oh, I was just devastated.
I mean, like, it was hard to focus. Mm.
Um, if it was a normal game, I wouldn't have played.
He's the one, really, though, that recognised your talent.
Yeah. Like, he saw in you...
And why you? Like, how does he know that you're good at sport?
How does he tell that you're someone who...
..would have all the things that you need
to be a professional footballer?
Yeah, well, Dad was a footy player when he was a young age...
Oh, right.
..and they all sort of had their own team -
Aboriginal team at Aldersyde.
So, he used to play as well? Yeah, yeah.
Oh, right. Did you ever play with him?
I sat on the bench with him one day in reserves.
The other team wouldn't go on the footy oval
because he was too rough.
Oh, was he? Yeah.
So, we had to sit on the bench the whole game.
Just you and your dad?
Oh, they wouldn't come out and play and start the game
'cause the old man was playing.
So, he sat on the bench with his footy gear on the whole game.
Was he an angry guy, do you think, your dad?
No. No. Loving and caring.
Loving and caring. Yeah.
Would people come and spot? Would talent spotters come?
Yeah, yeah. Talent scouts?
And did you... did you understand what that meant -
that someone might be looking out for you and watching you?
Oh, at a young age,
I was hoping it would happen, but... Did you?
..didn't really care. Didn't you?
I just... So you could have lived here happily?
Yeah, I could have just enjoyed myself living here.
Did you want to stay here?
I did. I did come home a few times.
And why? What was bringing you back?
Just the young age and...
I was 16, but, yeah... It's so young.
Like, you know, small-town to big-city life.
I know. That's right, yeah. That's the thing, isn't it?
In the span of, like, 10 years. Mm.
So, what did your parents want for you?
Not to be here? They wanted you to do something else?
Oh, they wanted me to be back home as well.
Did they? Yeah.
But they enjoyed what I was doing. I'll bet.
Had footy on every weekend. Yeah, yeah, I know. I can imagine.
Oh, if I ever played a bad game, he wouldn't talk to me for a week.
Really? (LAUGHS) Seriously.
Oh, the playground!
Did you love being outside, Nicky? Yeah.
Was my favourite time of the school.
(LAUGHS) Getting out? School hours. Yeah.
And what did you play? Was it always footy?
Footy. Cricket.
Anything. Anything.
So, in terms of classroom stuff, did you enjoy being at school?
Were there teachers that you liked? Yeah, yeah, some.
There was a teacher that I got on, you know, well with.
He taught me how to kick left-foot. Mark Brennan was his name.
Mark Brennan. His brother played for West Coast - Michael.
Right. And they...
I knew Michael and, um, yeah,
Mark used to always tell me to kick opposite feet.
This is the high school.
So, you just had to cross over from here to here to go to high school?
That's right. And what's that room down there?
That's the, um...
Yeah, the room that, if you did play up at school,
you'd go there and get a cane, so... Get a cane?
Yeah, the canes were very... Unbelievable.
Yeah. Did you get caned? Yeah.
Someone sort of said I broke some lockers,
but it wasn't me.
It wasn't you? No.
And what happened? Did you...?
I sort of had to go to another school after that, so...
You were expelled? Yeah, expelled.
And what other school... what other school could you go to?
Went to Narrogin, which is further up.
It was about another 40km.
And how would you get there every day?
On a bus.
Oh, I didn't like it that much,
so I just sort of told Dad I didn't like going there,
so I got a job in the Shire Council with Pingelly
and started as a shearer.
And how old were you at this stage? 14, and I was shearing sheep, so...
(GASPS) 14? Yeah.
And then when does the kind of jump-through to footy come?
What's the next step?
Oh, went to play a game in Williams,
which is further out, um, towards Perth way,
and Mal Brown came down.
He was coaching South Freo at the time, saw me play,
and then I got invited to go to play with South Fremantle in 1983.
And how old were you? 15, 16.
When I finished footy here, I was 15.
I played A-grade, but I won the...
A-grade is like the seniors. Mm.
I won the fairest and best at that age.
At 16! At 15.
At 15? Yeah.
This is the old footy oval, eh? Unreal.
This is where we used to play footy on.
Was it as smooth as this when you were playing?
This looks pretty rough.
I think the shoes were invented then.
I wouldn't play on it now! (LAUGHS)
There was a cricket pitch in the middle.
I mean, surely, it was greener than this?
Yeah, it was. It was much greener than this.
It was really looked after.
And did you come here and re-enact great games
with your friends?
Oh, someone's backyard was named after the MCG and...
Oh, no way. ..Fairfield Park and Waverley, like.
Which one...? Oh, that's so great. Sydney Park Oval.
A few times, we'd go in the backyard and spray a bit of water
to make a bit of mud to play footy in.
What, to make it look like the real stuff?
Yeah, yeah.
To make it harder, or did you just like getting dirty maybe?
Just getting muddy. (LAUGHS) Yeah.
About 10 of us.
We had no hot water at our house,
so we went to my aunty's and uncle's place.
There was mud everywhere!
Mud in the bathroom. Mud in the kitchen.
Aunty came home and went off her head.
How important was playing footy here as a kid?
Everywhere we went round this town with a footy in our hand,
we just sort of made it a footy ground.
Didn't matter if there was a tree in the road or not, you know.
We just used that for...
To take our own marks off or stumps.
And there's one of those seats in the back.
We used to take them off. Did you?
Take them out of the car,
use them for a spring to jump over the...
We did a high jump. Used to jump over them.
When you were playing here, do you think you stood out?
Oh, everybody stood out, I think.
You've said that a few times today. Yeah.
We had a lot of good players, like I was saying.
I wasn't the only one, but I was just...
I was just the lucky one, I think.
You think luck made a big part, is a big part of it, yeah?
Yeah, hard work, luck. Mm.
Um, just sticking at it. Mm.
Maybe the dedication side of it. Mm.
How hard did you train? Trained very hard.
Um, Mum would come down and watch me do training sometimes.
Aw!
She'd be bawling her eyes out, crying.
Oh, no! Why would she be crying? I don't know.
She reckoned it was too much hard work for me.
Mother's side of things. Yeah, well, they worry, don't they?
Dad was happy. Yeah, I'm sure.
And do you think you were happy?
Yeah, I'm glad I did those hard yards through my dad
'cause if I didn't do that,
I wouldn't have been able to go that far in my sport,
especially with the training they used to do.
Well, you were playing with the adults,
which is incredible that you were that young.
Like, you know, 15? Yeah.
Did they go easy on you?
No. Still got a sore jaw now.
Did you just click that then? Yeah. Feel it.
No, you do it. Feel it.
Oh! Yeah.
So, I got whacked when I was about...
Some bloke hit me.
So, do you think they resented you?
They resented a young kid who's better than them?
Oh, they were just amazed.
They were in awe that someone my size...
I was 67 kilos when I was playing. Wow!
Just to play like that.
Did you ever get a big head?
No. No? Never?
Wouldn't be here talking to you if I did. (LAUGHS)
No, I'm a sort of down-to-earth sort of person.
Treat everybody the way they treat you.
I'm just happy that there are people out there
who still remember the times I used to play,
um, acknowledge it, and that's really good.
We need to go to South Fremantle. Rightio.
Shall we do that drive? Let's go.
COMMENTATOR: Carter to Winmar. Winmar from 40m.
30m, takes the shot
and kicks another one for South Fremantle.
What are you doing there?
Just wipe a bit of grass on my hands for good luck.
Good luck? Yeah.
Oh. Got a bit too much dirt there when I did mine. (LAUGHS)
Put it back! I pulled the whole thing out.
I know. Look at this. This is fantastic!
This is beautiful. So, do you get flashbacks?
Yeah, I do. I still do.
Still enjoy coming back here. It's so beautiful.
This is like, you go from Pingelly, you know,
to where we came from, where we were today,
just to come to something like this, you know.
At a young age, especially. I can imagine.
There's just so much to see here.
Even I feel like running and kicking something!
Every club has a legend's bar, Nicky Winmar.
Yeah. Doesn't it?
Indeed. We're in one right now.
Look at all these great pictures of all these stars.
And look at this - little Nicky Winmar.
Did you see that one? I know.
Look at you there!
16, do you reckon you are there? 16, 17, yeah. 16.
Look at those guns there! Love those shorts!
Oh, I mean, I think all the ladies did, to be honest.
You must have been so nervous the first time you played out there.
Yeah, I was very nervous.
And those days, racism was very strong there as well...
Yeah.
..but we went out and played footy the best that we could.
It's such a double barrel, isn't it? Yeah.
'Cause you come here to just play,
and then you've also got to put up with all that other stuff.
Yeah, yeah, they're just trying to do that
to put you off the game, though, but sometimes it was hurtful,
so we had to retaliate in a physical way.
Shall we go for a walk and have a look on that?
Yeah, yeah. Come on. No-one's here.
There will be soon. Will there?
Is there going to be training? Yeah.
When you were with the Western Australian Football League,
WAFL - which always makes me laugh when I say it -
after that, after the success here...
Sounds like a waffle, doesn't it? WAFL! I know, yeah.
..you get to go to St Kilda.
Now, tell me about that poaching.
Had a couple of meetings with... with Kevin Sheedy.
Then I just sort of never heard back from Kevin again
and St Kilda approached me and so I snuck out of Perth.
Snuck?
Yeah, I sort of left Perth in another name just to not...
So the media wouldn't find out.
Yeah, so, I went there in '86
and I ended up staying over in St Kilda
for the next 12, 13 years.
COMMENTATOR: From the goal of the night
by Nicky Winmar puts the Saints in front.
COMMENTATOR 2: Winmar - tremendous! Oh, fantastic!
What was the hardest thing about Melbourne and living there?
Just, um, it was...
It was too far to walk home or drive home to the family...
(LAUGHS) ..so I had to stay there!
I had no other choice. I think my car went missing, though.
What?! I've got to find my car.
What, you took your car and you've lost it?
Yeah, I had an HX.
The club said they were going to fix it up for me
and never brought it back. Oh!
Now, tell me about the racist crowds. There would have been racism...
Yeah. ..there.
You know, there was a lot of racial... racial comments
against Aboriginal people.
It's pretty hard 'cause you work hard all your life
to get to somewhere and show people how skilful you are
and then you get racially abused.
It's not good.
And '93 against Collingwood, I did what I had to do.
I pointed to my skin and said, "I'm black and I'm proud,"
at Victoria Park, and I still stand as today of what I've said.
When I first got to Melbourne
and started to learn a bit about football,
it was the 15-year celebration of that photo,
and I found it in the newspaper,
cut it out and I stuck it up on my study.
And I didn't know you. Yeah.
I didn't know anything about football.
Right.
But there was just something about that picture
that was so strong and I thought,
"What's the story behind this picture?"
And read up about it.
If they hadn't taken that photo, I wonder what would have happened.
I didn't know it was taken till the next day.
If he didn't take it, I would have still kept playing
and doing what I was doing.
Did the press go wild?
Yeah, they didn't know whether to put it
in the second page or the first page.
They put it on the first page.
And after that, it got a bit difficult, didn't it?
You couldn't even stay at home or go home.
Yeah, my wife at the time and I
and the kids were staying at Molly Meldrum's.
They didn't want to go back home. True?
Yeah. Is that right?
Molly's a good friend of ours. Oh, fantastic.
But I sort of...
I think I let the players...
I'd like to apologise to my teammates.
At the time, I did sort of let them down
'cause I didn't go back for about three or four weeks.
I sort of didn't want to play footy anymore...
But, I mean... ..'cause of all the...
..controversial things that happened.
Mm-hm. Didn't like it. Didn't enjoy it.
Around that time too,
you were supposed to go on The Footy Show
and you cancelled, and Sam Newman, that idiot -
I'm happy to say it out loud -
went blackface and said you'd gone walkabout and all of that.
I mean, I don't know how he gets away with it, frankly.
Stuff like that is so unnecessary. Yeah, it's not good.
It's not good for, um...
For his...
It's not good for anybody to... to do something like that.
I think Sam learnt well not to do that again.
Do you? Oh, I don't know if he did! (LAUGHS)
Don't know if he did, actually. Oh, well.
Sam, don't do it again. Yeah, don't do it again.
Do you think the crowds have gotten better?
I mean, even after all the Adam Goodes stuff as well.
It's like it keeps resurfacing. Oh, it's still going to be there.
I mean... Do you think?
Julia, it's going to be there for the rest of our lives, but...
Um, the boys have just got to let them know
that they are black and proud,
so just keep doing what you're doing.
So, what about retirement?
When you decided to retire, you finished with St Kilda,
you were with the Western Bulldogs for a year.
How did you come to that decision?
Body told me that enough was enough. I just...
For most sportspeople, that's the thing, isn't it?
Yeah, I was 34, going on 35 at the time, so....
That's nothing, though. Yeah.
It is something when you're going to go and do another pre-season.
And so did you feel a bit lost?
Yeah, I didn't know what to do after that. Came back to WA.
Mm. Um, met my partner, Beth.
That was good, yeah.
Are you still together? Yeah, still together.
18 years, so... That's amazing.
Did a bit of mining work and travelled around.
Did you?
Yeah, different areas. Right.
Virtually, she could write a book about it.
My Travels With Nicky Winmar. (BOTH LAUGH)
All over.
In that time, after missing the game, but then realising, you know,
you've got to kind of come back to a life without sport,
you had a heart attack.
Yeah. Tell me about that.
Oh, five years ago, I was at my aunty's.
Beth and I were staying overnight, and I got some chest pain.
I thought it was heartburn. Heartburn?
Yeah, I thought it was heartburn, so the next thing I did
was get a glass of milk and have some Quick-Eze.
(LAUGHS) Quick-Eze to the rescue!
Told Beth about it and she said, "Why don't you have a rest
"and we'll see what happens later on?"
And she said, "You always wake up this time of..."
Anyway, I wake up the next day and it's still there.
Drove down the road
to get some more Quick-Eze and some more milk.
Just didn't go away,
so turned around, went to Midland Hospital.
You know, I'd like to thank them for what they've done.
And what happened?
Had you had a heart attack? Yeah, I had a blockage in my heart.
Your dad died at 50 of a heart attack.
Yeah, '58. 50 years old, yeah.
And is that the fear - the fear that sort of...?
It's always there, as anyone's life.
Your heart can stop whenever it wants.
And nothing you can do about it,
but just got to try and do the right thing,
take your pills and eat your...
With your diet and drink a lot of water
and just be careful what you do.
Where do you feel at home?
Oh, I just feel at home here.
Here? In Pingelly, Freo.
It's always home. Yeah.
It's an experience to go and do other things in other states,
then come back, and then...
You know, you learn a lot and you've gained a lot.
Then you can pass it on to others, which is good.
What parts of you are the same as the man you are today
to the 14-year-old?
Like they say, laughter is the best medicine
and, um, to always muck around, having fun.
Just enjoy your life.
They say you take the kid out of the country,
but you don't take the country out of the kid.
Take the fun out of a person,
you know, it makes them boring, but I like to be a funny bloke.
Nicky, thank you for spending the day with us today,
taking us back to Pingelly.
Yeah. Thank you, guys.
Freo. You were fantastic.
Shall we go and, um, kick a footy?
Maybe you can show me how to mark!
I think a nice soft drink would be nice.
A nice soft drink. Very good. (LAUGHS)
Excellent. Thank you, Nicky.
Alright, thank you. Thank you.
Captions by Red Bee Media
Copyright Australian Broadcasting Corporation